Two Designers Walk Into A Bar

Episode 07: Tootsie Rolls, The Dukes of Hazzard and Childhood Memories

Released December 9, 2020
© 2020 Two Designers Media, LLC

Welcome to Two Designers Walk Into a Bar, a place where pop culture-loving creatives, discover design icons, and make ‘em tick. And we share a few cocktails in the process.

Everyone remembers their first time. Today, we take a stroll down memory lane to revisit a particular type face and discuss how no matter where we’ve seen it since we are reminded of the moment when our eyes first met. So, pop open that cold brew, dust off that old type specimen book and grab a stool next to us at the bar.

Here we are. Once again, Elliot. Gathered around the virtual pub table. 

Yes. Looking around, you can say, Hey, that person’s just my type. Right? But you don’t know, what that person is because you’re just kind of basing things on an impression that you have. And impression…

Wait, I think I might know where you’re going here.

All right. All right. And where you’re going right now. Well, you know, type. 

Yeah, yeah. 

Impression…

Yes. Robin figure it out. 

Is it time to get the lead out?

Oh, I love that. You’re ragging that aren’t you. 

Oh yeah. Well, you know, there’s going to be a photo finish at some point.

That you know exactly. I can’t think of a kerning joke, but obviously we’re talking about…

…You know, I’ve seen your work. Some of your kerning is a joke. 

Hey, nerd alert! 

I’ll be here all week.

Yes! Today! What a great day we have. We’re going to talk about something interesting with typography, but not in the typical nerd sense. Are we Elliot?

Speak for yourself? 

Okay. All right. We’ve got a good theme for today.

I think so.

All right. So, what we’re going to talk about? We’re going to talk about your first time, Elliot. 

You never forget it do you? 

We’re going to talk about the first time you saw a particular typeface – and an identifiable typeface. Let’s say probably a display typeface because you know, you saw Helvetica the minute you were born.

So, let’s talk about a display typeface. What do you remember seeing it on? Is that what you’re here to talk about too? 

Oh, geez. Okay. Well, hold on, let me…uh…I’m going to have to put away my apple package collection here and, uh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yes. I think I can make that happen. I actually have in my back pocket here. I do happen to have a typeface that is near and dear to me. And Todd, I think you’ll love it. Because my typeface involves a little bit of pseudo-Southern heritage. 

Oh, okay. Well, let me see. There’s so many, there could be, uh, a log tight face that you would use on your moonshine business, right? 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, me and my moonshine business, I’m never holding still.

Oh, man. Did you look up a book of puns before joining today? Awesome. 

I wrote the book of puns. Are you kidding me? 

All right. Well, and I’ve got one for you. That’s actually done by a legit type designer, but it had a minute. It had its minute in a really sort of high period of artistic expression in the 1960s and seventies. It is as much maligned as it is loved. I can’t.

So we’re going to kind of get into a little bit of a battle here because I would argue…Do you want me to tip my hand? Do you want me to introduce my ugly date?

Yeah. 

So it sounds like we’re, gonna, we’re trying to decide whose guest is more maligned, who clears the room faster when they show up to the party?

Who brought the stinkiest guest to the party?

All right. Go for it.

All right. I’m going to toss my hat in the ring here. Um, so my typeface is – I won’t say, near and dear to my heart –but it’s one that is of my childhood. You know what, Todd, I feel to reveal the typeface I want to tell you what the show is that I first encountered it in because knowing you … knowing your pedigree … I think you will nail this as soon as I give you the title.

Okay. All right. Come on man. Am I that much of a southerner? 

Well, are you ready? 

Okay, go ahead.

The Dukes of Hazzard…

Yeah. I know what it is. It’s Hobo, right? 

Okay. All right. Yeah, you got me. All right. Good, good, good. 

Yeah. Yeah. If that, if that designer wasn’t going to get it to hillbilly would.

Well, you know, Elliot while I may be an educated designer at my heart, I am still a tried and true southerner. And as you know, being here in the south, people move down here all the time. But moving here, doesn’t make you a southerner any more than a cat having kittens in an oven makes them biscuits.

Hmm. Or I would argue a show being set in Georgia – actually being filmed in Southern California. 

Or you can take the ‘Bo out of the Ho’, but you can’t take the Ho’ out of the ‘Bo.

Sure. All right. 

So, okay. We, we really strangled that pun. 

It’s surrendered. 

All right. So, let’s talk about this. You’re going to tell me a little bit about, the typeface Hobo. I have no idea where it began. I have no idea of its origin. I certainly am more familiar with The Dukes of Hazzard. So, tie those things together.

You mentioned being an educated designer. I, myself am also an educated designer. Now, many people who have either met us in person, listened to this podcast, or both, may disagree with that last statement. But I did not know until I started to look at type specimen books in college. That Hobo even had a lowercase alphabet.

The only time I’d ever seen Hobo was in The Dukes of Hazzard. And we will go ahead and post stills. We’ll go ahead and post the opening credits on YouTube. So, we’ll go ahead and post those because you know, a few years ago they made a Dukes of Hazzard movie. But that was all slick. That was all uppity.

That was not The Dukes of Hazzard I grew up with, Todd. That was not The Dukes of Hazzard you grew up with. And Hobo was nowhere to be found, which was a profound disappointment for me.

Crime. 

You know, sometimes the original is the best. Yeah. So anyway, I will post these credits and you guys will see when you look at these, that there is no lowercase anywhere. They just made the uppercase smaller when they wanted to de-emphasize the other stuff. But yeah, Hobo to me was The Dukes of Hazzard.

Now. In the past, you talked about KISS. When we talked about 1976 and the phenomenon of KISS Now around the time that you fell in love with KISS was right around the time The Dukes of Hazzard was on TV for me in my life.

Right. I was about the same age…9…10. So, it started in 1979 when I was 6 and ended in 1985. So, I would have been 12 or 13 years old. So, the dual modern-day, Robin Hoods, as they say, Todd. You know these guys were on the right side of the law, but the law never treated them with any respect. Just like Hobo doesn’t get the respect it deserves.

No. Hobo has no Uncle Jesse or Cooter. 

No. Heck no. Certainly nothing as beautiful as Daisy Duke. 

You know, I bet people don't even know that term for those types of shorts originated with The Dukes of Hazzard.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you should post pictures of that too.

Well, let’s just say it’s good that I’m alone right now as we’re recording this and we’re talking about Daisy. At any rate, just to get back on track here. I got distracted for a minute, reliving my adolescents.

Hobo. So Hobo came along long before the Duke boys, it was designed by Morris Fuller Benton for American Type Founders back in 1910. Then five years later, there was a lighter weight.

So, you know, display faces were used in all kinds of ads and Hobo was kind of this quirky wood cut-looking typeface. It just looked hand-carved. It was really strange. No straight lines in it. As I mentioned earlier, there was a lowercase alphabet that I was unaware of at the time, but you know what? It turns out it didn’t even matter. Because they could have used the lowercase because even though they’re lowercase characters, there are no descenders…

It’s a Hobo, dammit. Be proud.

Yeah. That’s right. You know, you play by your own rules. You live your life the way you want to live.

It is just a good old boy. 

That’s right. So, Morris Fuller Benton. if you guys don’t know Hobo, I guaran-damn-tee if you are a designer of any worth when it comes to your affection for typefaces, you will know some of this guy’s greatest hits.

We could be here for the next hour listing the things this guy has created, but I will narrow it down to four. Century Schoolbook. 

Yeah. 

Bank Gothic. Franklin Gothic and Garamond Three. 

Whoa. Yeah. The real deal. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

And Hobo. 

And Hobo goes without saying. I mean, this guy probably typeset his whole resume in Hobo.

I would too.

Yeah. The interesting thing that he did in addition–of course–to bringing The Dukes of Hazzard out of the hollers and into the mainstream…You see what I did there? That was my Southern…

Yeah. Yeah. So not sounding quite right I know. I apologize. I apologize to everybody. 

Good try “Biscuit.” 

Thanks. I appreciate that.

He pioneered the concept of typeface families in different sizes and weights while he was working as the chief type designer for American Type Foundry for 37 years. Other people had sort of done it sporadically over the years, but he was really the first one. It wasn’t Adobe, it wasn’t House Industries. Apologizing to House and to Jonathan Hoefler and Tobias Frere-Jones and all these other folks who are folk hero.

Yeah. 

So, but this was the first guy to really crack that code. So, the big mystery here though is why the name Hobo, right? I mean, sure. It’s this little sort of ramshackle typeface – you know, it’s kind of…when you see it, you’ll say…“Yeah, Hobo. That fits.” It turns out there are a few competing theories around this and it’s a mystery. No one truly knows the answer as it turns out. The first theory is that it came from a story that it was sketched in the early 1900s, sent to the founders, nameless. Like it just kind of…you know, just hung around. No one was an advocate for it within the type foundry and it sort of lingered.

And it was called that Old Hobo, you know? It was this, old kind of half-baked design that was always hanging around. Kind of this albatross, right? So, it was the hobo. It was the itinerant fellow, the gentlemen of the road who would not go away.

Then another idea. The typeface originally was not even called Hobo. It was originally called Ad Face – believe it or not – which doesn’t really roll off the tongue. 

And doesn’t sound nearly as fun as you can imagine that this hobo does. 

So, it was finally patented in 1915. I mentioned there was a second version of the type face called Light Hobo.

That’s the Hobo that…

…Has got his shit together.

Well, I would say he probably shits more often than his more heavyset friend, you know? if he’s the Light Hobo. So, you know, he got ahold of a bag of Olestra chips or something. I’m not sure exactly. 

That is a separate story my friend…

I’m sorry. My new nickname for you Todd is Light Hobo. 

One of the theories here is the prevailing bow-legged shape of the letter forms. And again, if you look at this you’ll know. We’ll post references to this on our website, but that the bow-legged shape of the letter forms inspired another theory that it was named because it looked like a hobo’s bow legs right.

You know, this guy tooling around town. But there is a benign – but I would argue equally interesting theory – and that is Benton lived and worked near a large Russian community. And apparently there was a cigar poster that was advertising to this population. In this poster there was a word that looked like “hobo,” so hobo or a word very similar to it in Russian means “new.” So, it’s like, “Hey, there’s this new cigar out there – “Hobo.” And the reason that people tie this typeface and this name back to that poster – In addition to that word – is that apparently a letter O, that was used in the poster almost exactly matches the O, that later appeared in Hobo. And when I say almost matched, like you could take a tracing of it, slap it on this original poster and it matches, so it could very well be that again.

If you think about our Underappreciated, Unsung Logos podcast episode, you had this unsung hero that maybe put together a few of these characters and just went about his business, you know. Finished his cigar poster project. Then Benton comes along sees this letter form, a spark flies, and he decides, “Hey, this could really go somewhere.”

I really feel this is goes back to something Todd, that you and I have repeatedly returned to in our episodes, which is that all designers are always standing on the shoulders of others, right? Mining pop culture, looking at the built environment, seeing things that are right at your fingertips. This is in my opinion, just another example of that. Enough about me, enough about Hobo.

Let’s jump into your memory. 

All right. I don’t think I caught the date around when Hobo was released.

The lighter weight was released in 1915, but the original Hobo was 1910. So, it’s 110 years old. I mean, this is not a new typeface. But the good news is it was certainly around before 1979, certainly around, certainly around before the show that was second only in ratings to Dallas at one point on CBS.

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Are we done? We’re done.

[Part 2]

Okay. So both of our dates with good personalities that we’re bringing to the bar tonight. They share some similarities. Both were born around the same time period, back in 1910. 

You know, Todd. Without going any further, I think this proves we both like older women. 

So I never did let on the exact typeface that I'm talking about, but I did tell you it was designed by a pretty famous type designer out of Chicago.

The band Chicago?

No, not exactly. Not exactly. There’s a little bit of discrepancy in the times, but let’s just say 1920, 1922, it was drawn. It was a version of another typeface that this guy had created famous earlier. You might know him, the great Oz. Does that sound like anybody?

Yeah, that’s right. Oswald Cooper. Cooper Black is what we’re talking about. 

I love it. I adore Cooper Black.

Of course. If you look up “ironic” in the designer’s fancy dictionary, you would see that it’s written in Cooper Black because people love it. Or don’t. It has been used in some incredibly sublime uses and then some really janky ones too.

Let me tell you a little bit about how I was exposed to this. First of all back – I don’t know, probably it was in the seventies sometime…late seventies – My parents bought me these giant cork letters, so I could pin stuff to them on my wall. And they happened to be letters in Cooper Black, which is cool.

I didn’t know. Right? I had no idea that there were even these styles of typefaces. I just was happy enough that I could recognize the letter C for one of them. So, I realized at the time that was the same typestyle as some titles to some of their records. Again, this was sort of the seventies, things like the Beach Boys Pet Sounds, Neil Diamond’s Greatest Hits. You know, some Simon and Garfunkel there.

I started connecting these things here, which I thought was kind of cool. I noticed the cork letters matched those letters on the albums and also one of my personal favorites, the packaging for Sea Monkeys, too. 

Oh yeah. Love that. 

Yeah. Then speaking of TV shows, Different Strokes. 

So Cooper Black, for me, represented this range of awesome everything from Pet Sounds to some of my pet Sea Monkeys. And I could draw it. Here’s what’s cool about that. As I said it was designed by Oswald Bruce Cooper, and it was released by the Barnhart Brothers and Spindler Type Foundry in 1922. And it was designed as an extra bold weight of Cooper’s Old Style.

And you know, it was fine. It kind of bumped along. It's fat, it’s chunky, it’s known for these sort of rounded bottoms – these curved bottoms that were forgiving if you had bad type setting. So, the baseline didn’t always have to align. It sort of still worked because there were no flat edges on the bottom.

Flash forward and technology advancements, movable type, Phototype started kind of getting to be a thing in the late fifties, and it allowed us to start squeezing letters together even more tightly so the kerning would become super tight and Oz Cooper thought that’s where Cooper Black looked its best. When it was like jammed together with tight letter spacing and tight kerning.

Phototype, obviously of that period was starting to allow us to do those kinds of things, which is cool. It’s given us some more freedom. 

For some of the listeners let’s define what Phototype is super-duper quickly and why now there’s this freedom that wasn’t there before.

Okay. So up until then, letters had to be created either in wood – the early stages or in metal type. And you had to set every letter of every word using individual pieces of metal or wood back in the day. And because they were real blocks. They were real chunks. They couldn’t get, but so close together.

With the technological advent of Phototype, we could then squish the letters more tightly, kerning them, better together.

Because they were on film at that point, it was a film positive, film negative. So, the only thing was light had to pass through it. You could layer things on top of each other, right?

Yeah. Right. But the real kind of interesting thing that happened here at the crossroads the mid-1960s was what you, and I know as the start of the desktop revolution. This giant step forward happened in the sixties when software became available, which allowed different typefaces to be available.

And users, typesetters, operators were working on CRT screens, which gave the typesetter even more freedom to express themselves with different typefaces. So no doubt, Hobo was kicking it back then as well and Cooper Black – A great representation of the time, because it was fat. It was chunky. It got attention. Right? 

This happened it also side with the explosion of expression that happened in the 1960s and seventies. So think about things like band flyers or protest signs. And as I said before, album covers. So many album covers at that time were set with Cooper Black. It became a sign of the times. It became identifiable as part of that generation, part of that artistic expression.

It’s so funny that you mentioned this because when I was doing some of my research for this episode, I found a lot of flyers and book covers and things like that. There were actually set in both Cooper Black and Hobo. Apparently, these guys have been roommates for a long time. 

Yeah. Apparently, that’s like some kind of unholy duo, right?

Or superhero duo. Yeah. We don’t know if it’s a Thor and Loki or if it’s more like the Wonder Twins, right?

Okay. So let me talk about my impression of it. Obviously, it was kind of everywhere at a period of time and it’s so part of the culture. But again, a thing that was really an important use of it was Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys.

And everybody knows this record. It was released in 1966, May 16th, 1966, which is about a year after Brian Wilson had decided to stop touring with the band. He was having some air quotes “issues,” so decided for the band to go out on tour he would stay holed up in the studio and make masterpieces. So, this freedom from touring allowed him to really get into the studio, use the studio for artistic expression.

He could record endlessly. He could twiddle knobs endlessly. The great thing I mentioned, sort of the technology advances of phototype setting, but also recording technology was also advancing at a rapid rate. 

Now, the third part of this intersection…of this crossroads if you will…was drug use. Around the mid-sixties, obviously drug use was becoming more apparent. LSD and marijuana, certainly with recording artists, and Brian Wilson was no different.

Todd, you know, I actually saw a documentary about Brian Wilson during this time when he was sort of separating from the band. And from what I recall, he actually had some mental issues happening. I mean, and not even trying to sound funny by saying that he was starting to get sick. And if I remember one of the symptoms when he or other people started knowing things were going wrong and I think this goes to the drug use. The idea of self-medicating was, uh, during this time, when he was in the studio and playing music, wasn’t he having auditory hallucinations? 

Yes. Yes. I mean, why else would you use a theremin on a record, right, Elliot? 

Well, if a UFO is landing, you use a theremin. 

Good point. Now I know how I can break out my theremin.

Clearly, yes. He had some issues which had kept him from touring and allowed him to really focus on making music that broke new ground. So then Pet Sounds was released at the time as I said, in 1966. And it’s widely known that Pet Sounds influenced the Beatles to create Sgt Pepper’s.

There actually was an arms race for those of you who don’t know, between the Beatles and the Beach Boys. 

Yes. If you think about that period Pet Sounds followed by Sgt Pepper’s – which was the reaction from the Beatles – That was sort of the big bang of pop culture that represents the 1960s.

And we can say Cooper Black was there to tell us about it. 

Oh you know, I will also give you another example from my childhood. That is still on the air today. Boom. Yeah. All these years later. And Todd, I’m about to give you a hint. Are you ready? Okay. Okay. Close your close your eyes. Imagine you’re like 15-years old and you're sitting in front of the television.

Okay. One, two-hoo, th-reeee.

Yeah. That’s what Cooper Black tastes like – Tootsie Pops. 

Yes. A hundred percent. It tastes like Tootsie Pops, right? 

Yeah. So I was thinking about this and I’m going to ask you that same question. Like when I think of Cooper Black, now obviously I taste Tootsie Pops or Tootsie Rolls. I see in-your-face advertising, I see TV shows like M*A*S*H or Bob Newhart. And I hear the sounds of a clavinet or theremin. 

Right. Yes, both. I mean, how amazing would that be up playing here? Playing a theremin. 

So, what does Hobo tastes like, Elliot?

Corn pone.

Corn pone and salt. What sound does Hobo make, Elliot? 

The voice of Hobo is Waylon Jennings. 

Just a good old boy.

And the balladeer man, the guy who narrated all of the episodes of The Dukes of Hazzard a long with singing his theme song. 

That’s right. So, okay. What lasting impressions do you have from Hobo and The Dukes?

Oh, man. Well, first of all, I don’t think a car named the General Lee with a giant rebel battle flag could probably be on television today.

Not pass standards. 

It wouldn’t pass muster, but 30 years ago I had the whole Ertl – I imagine that’s how you would pronounce that company’s name – I had all of the Matchbox cars. I read that there were 12 General Lee’s on the original. You know, cause they were all getting smashed up all the time with all the stunts. I wanted to be a stunt car driver when I was little, when I wasn’t going to be an NFL quarterback, I wanted to totally be the guy who got paid to jump an orange car over a river or over police cars, over the bad guys from the big city of Atlanta, you know, whatever it took, man.

I was all about that. So I had several General Lee models that I would put together and then I smashed them up cause they got smashed up on the show. But to me, to this day…probably I’m not suggesting I get Hobo as the typeface on my tombstone…But if the last thing I look at is Hobo. It will still remind me of The Dukes of Hazzard that is that typeface to me. 

Even though you’re from the Midwest, Elliot. You’re just a good old boy. 

I’m not harming anybody. 

No, no, you’re just a good old boy. You’re rounding the curves. Aren’t you? Straightening the hills? Sorry. Flattening the Hills.

And straightening the curves. Sorry, Todd. It’s official. Turn your card in. You’re no longer a Southerner

Turn in the card.

I can still name the actors though…Tom Snyder. Uh…John Schneider, Tom Wopat, Catherine Bach, Denver Pyle.

Love Denver Pyle. And who played Roscoe? 

Um, man, I can’t think of his name, but both Denver Pyle and the character that played Roscoe were on Andy Griffith. 

Oh yeah. And, what was Roscoe’s dog? The name of his dog?

Oh, okay. You’re ready for my impression. 

Go ahead.

“Goooo Flash. Git. Git. Git.”

That was awesome. I closed my eyes, Roscoe was here. Now there was a Cooter in the show too, right?

He’s a mechanic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Well, you know what? I’m going to leave that alone because the 14 listeners we do have, I at least want to still have 12 listeners when this episode plays. 

That’s right. I may have lost some there. Sorry about that. 

So, Todd. You know we joke about Tootsie Roll and some of these other things. What other – if any lasting impressions – do you have about Cooper Black? So you know, if it were like a flashcard and I just had a cork C. Like if I had an upper case C of Cooper Black. And I flashed that in front of you real quick. What would be the first thing that pop into your head? 

So clearly it was of the time, right? It’s used now, ironically, if we want to be more retro, but from sort of the sixties and seventies, it definitely represented artistic technology and civil advancement.

And to me like Cooper Black was both the cause and the result of it. As I said before, it represents kind of those things all coming together. And it was in your face. We’re going to post this link to on the website. There’s a great video by Vox called That Font is Everywhere.

It’s actually pretty well designed. Although it certainly had its minutes. Um, but it’s certainly well-deserved. Bold, fat in your face. Great for advertising. So I will always remember it as being adventurous as being bold, um, as sort of opening the doors, um, to artistic expression and, uh, really kind of yelling at me a little. Bit with the sound of a theremin and a clavinet. Geez, I guess I win the low culture award this week because it just reminds me of a TV.

You win this round, Todd Coats. But I’ll be back. I will be back. One of us always has to be low-brow. One has to be high-brow. I really thought, you know, with these two type faces today, we both were going to drive through the neighborhood of high-brow or excuse me, low-brow.

I was going to say, if we both drove through the neighborhood of high brow at the same time, everybody would look out their windows and know something’s up. They would be moving out of the neighborhood and then, you know, who’d be following us.

Well, Todd, it was a pleasure as always, I thoroughly enjoyed it. And, uh, I can’t wait to do this again. 

Absolutely. Thanks Elliott. Thanks to our 12 listeners out there. Uh, tell a friend if you want to really make them like a lifelong friend. No, I would say, get a tattoo of one of your initials and Cooper Black and the other initial in Hobo.

Oh yeah, yeah. And then, and then, and then on your body, those two type faces are now lifelong friends.

Just a good old boy.

###END###

Two Designers Walk Into A Bar

Episode 007: “First Impressions”

Released December 9, 2020
© 2020 Todd Coats and Elliot Strunk

Welcome to Two Designers Walk Into a Bar, a place where pop culture-loving creatives, discover design icons, and make ‘em tick. And we share a few cocktails in the process.

Everyone remembers their first time. Today, we take a stroll down memory lane to revisit a particular type face and discuss how no matter where we’ve seen it since we are reminded of the moment when our eyes first met. So, pop open that cold brew, dust off that old type specimen book and grab a stool next to us at the bar.

Here we are. Once again, Elliot. Gathered around the virtual pub table. 

Yes. Looking around, you can say, Hey, that person’s just my type. Right? But you don’t know, what that person is because you’re just kind of basing things on an impression that you have. And impression…

Wait, I think I might know where you’re going here.

All right. All right. And where you’re going right now. Well, you know, type. 

Yeah, yeah. 

Impression…

Yes. Robin figure it out. 

Is it time to get the lead out?

Oh, I love that. You’re ragging that aren’t you. 

Oh yeah. Well, you know, there’s going to be a photo finish at some point.

That you know exactly. I can’t think of a kerning joke, but obviously we’re talking about…

…You know, I’ve seen your work. Some of your kerning is a joke. 

Hey, nerd alert! 

I’ll be here all week.

Yes! Today! What a great day we have. We’re going to talk about something interesting with typography, but not in the typical nerd sense. Are we Elliot?

Speak for yourself? 

Okay. All right. We’ve got a good theme for today.

I think so.

All right. So, what we’re going to talk about? We’re going to talk about your first time, Elliot. 

You never forget it do you? 

We’re going to talk about the first time you saw a particular typeface – and an identifiable typeface. Let’s say probably a display typeface because you know, you saw Helvetica the minute you were born.

So, let’s talk about a display typeface. What do you remember seeing it on? Is that what you’re here to talk about too? 

Oh, geez. Okay. Well, hold on, let me…uh…I’m going to have to put away my apple package collection here and, uh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yes. I think I can make that happen. I actually have in my back pocket here. I do happen to have a typeface that is near and dear to me. And Todd, I think you’ll love it. Because my typeface involves a little bit of pseudo-Southern heritage. 

Oh, okay. Well, let me see. There’s so many, there could be, uh, a log tight face that you would use on your moonshine business, right? 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, me and my moonshine business, I’m never holding still.

Oh, man. Did you look up a book of puns before joining today? Awesome. 

I wrote the book of puns. Are you kidding me? 

All right. Well, and I’ve got one for you. That’s actually done by a legit type designer, but it had a minute. It had its minute in a really sort of high period of artistic expression in the 1960s and seventies. It is as much maligned as it is loved. I can’t.

So we’re going to kind of get into a little bit of a battle here because I would argue…Do you want me to tip my hand? Do you want me to introduce my ugly date?

Yeah. 

So it sounds like we’re, gonna, we’re trying to decide whose guest is more maligned, who clears the room faster when they show up to the party?

Who brought the stinkiest guest to the party?

All right. Go for it.

All right. I’m going to toss my hat in the ring here. Um, so my typeface is – I won’t say, near and dear to my heart –but it’s one that is of my childhood. You know what, Todd, I feel to reveal the typeface I want to tell you what the show is that I first encountered it in because knowing you … knowing your pedigree … I think you will nail this as soon as I give you the title.

Okay. All right. Come on man. Am I that much of a southerner? 

Well, are you ready? 

Okay, go ahead.

The Dukes of Hazzard…

Yeah. I know what it is. It’s Hobo, right? 

Okay. All right. Yeah, you got me. All right. Good, good, good. 

Yeah. Yeah. If that, if that designer wasn’t going to get it to hillbilly would.

Well, you know, Elliot while I may be an educated designer at my heart, I am still a tried and true southerner. And as you know, being here in the south, people move down here all the time. But moving here, doesn’t make you a southerner any more than a cat having kittens in an oven makes them biscuits.

Hmm. Or I would argue a show being set in Georgia – actually being filmed in Southern California. 

Or you can take the ‘Bo out of the Ho’, but you can’t take the Ho’ out of the ‘Bo.

Sure. All right. 

So, okay. We, we really strangled that pun. 

It’s surrendered. 

All right. So, let’s talk about this. You’re going to tell me a little bit about, the typeface Hobo. I have no idea where it began. I have no idea of its origin. I certainly am more familiar with The Dukes of Hazzard. So, tie those things together.

You mentioned being an educated designer. I, myself am also an educated designer. Now, many people who have either met us in person, listened to this podcast, or both, may disagree with that last statement. But I did not know until I started to look at type specimen books in college. That Hobo even had a lowercase alphabet.

The only time I’d ever seen Hobo was in The Dukes of Hazzard. And we will go ahead and post stills. We’ll go ahead and post the opening credits on YouTube. So, we’ll go ahead and post those because you know, a few years ago they made a Dukes of Hazzard movie. But that was all slick. That was all uppity.

That was not The Dukes of Hazzard I grew up with, Todd. That was not The Dukes of Hazzard you grew up with. And Hobo was nowhere to be found, which was a profound disappointment for me.

Crime. 

You know, sometimes the original is the best. Yeah. So anyway, I will post these credits and you guys will see when you look at these, that there is no lowercase anywhere. They just made the uppercase smaller when they wanted to de-emphasize the other stuff. But yeah, Hobo to me was The Dukes of Hazzard.

Now. In the past, you talked about KISS. When we talked about 1976 and the phenomenon of KISS Now around the time that you fell in love with KISS was right around the time The Dukes of Hazzard was on TV for me in my life.

Right. I was about the same age…9…10. So, it started in 1979 when I was 6 and ended in 1985. So, I would have been 12 or 13 years old. So, the dual modern-day, Robin Hoods, as they say, Todd. You know these guys were on the right side of the law, but the law never treated them with any respect. Just like Hobo doesn’t get the respect it deserves.

No. Hobo has no Uncle Jesse or Cooter. 

No. Heck no. Certainly nothing as beautiful as Daisy Duke. 

You know, I bet people don't even know that term for those types of shorts originated with The Dukes of Hazzard.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you should post pictures of that too.

Well, let’s just say it’s good that I’m alone right now as we’re recording this and we’re talking about Daisy. At any rate, just to get back on track here. I got distracted for a minute, reliving my adolescents.

Hobo. So Hobo came along long before the Duke boys, it was designed by Morris Fuller Benton for American Type Founders back in 1910. Then five years later, there was a lighter weight.

So, you know, display faces were used in all kinds of ads and Hobo was kind of this quirky wood cut-looking typeface. It just looked hand-carved. It was really strange. No straight lines in it. As I mentioned earlier, there was a lowercase alphabet that I was unaware of at the time, but you know what? It turns out it didn’t even matter. Because they could have used the lowercase because even though they’re lowercase characters, there are no descenders…

It’s a Hobo, dammit. Be proud.

Yeah. That’s right. You know, you play by your own rules. You live your life the way you want to live.

It is just a good old boy. 

That’s right. So, Morris Fuller Benton. if you guys don’t know Hobo, I guaran-damn-tee if you are a designer of any worth when it comes to your affection for typefaces, you will know some of this guy’s greatest hits.

We could be here for the next hour listing the things this guy has created, but I will narrow it down to four. Century Schoolbook. 

Yeah. 

Bank Gothic. Franklin Gothic and Garamond Three. 

Whoa. Yeah. The real deal. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

And Hobo. 

And Hobo goes without saying. I mean, this guy probably typeset his whole resume in Hobo.

I would too.

Yeah. The interesting thing that he did in addition–of course–to bringing The Dukes of Hazzard out of the hollers and into the mainstream…You see what I did there? That was my Southern…

Yeah. Yeah. So not sounding quite right I know. I apologize. I apologize to everybody. 

Good try “Biscuit.” 

Thanks. I appreciate that.

He pioneered the concept of typeface families in different sizes and weights while he was working as the chief type designer for American Type Foundry for 37 years. Other people had sort of done it sporadically over the years, but he was really the first one. It wasn’t Adobe, it wasn’t House Industries. Apologizing to House and to Jonathan Hoefler and Tobias Frere-Jones and all these other folks who are folk hero.

Yeah. 

So, but this was the first guy to really crack that code. So, the big mystery here though is why the name Hobo, right? I mean, sure. It’s this little sort of ramshackle typeface – you know, it’s kind of…when you see it, you’ll say…“Yeah, Hobo. That fits.” It turns out there are a few competing theories around this and it’s a mystery. No one truly knows the answer as it turns out. The first theory is that it came from a story that it was sketched in the early 1900s, sent to the founders, nameless. Like it just kind of…you know, just hung around. No one was an advocate for it within the type foundry and it sort of lingered.

And it was called that Old Hobo, you know? It was this, old kind of half-baked design that was always hanging around. Kind of this albatross, right? So, it was the hobo. It was the itinerant fellow, the gentlemen of the road who would not go away.

Then another idea. The typeface originally was not even called Hobo. It was originally called Ad Face – believe it or not – which doesn’t really roll off the tongue. 

And doesn’t sound nearly as fun as you can imagine that this hobo does. 

So, it was finally patented in 1915. I mentioned there was a second version of the type face called Light Hobo.

That’s the Hobo that…

…Has got his shit together.

Well, I would say he probably shits more often than his more heavyset friend, you know? if he’s the Light Hobo. So, you know, he got ahold of a bag of Olestra chips or something. I’m not sure exactly. 

That is a separate story my friend…

I’m sorry. My new nickname for you Todd is Light Hobo. 

One of the theories here is the prevailing bow-legged shape of the letter forms. And again, if you look at this you’ll know. We’ll post references to this on our website, but that the bow-legged shape of the letter forms inspired another theory that it was named because it looked like a hobo’s bow legs right.

You know, this guy tooling around town. But there is a benign – but I would argue equally interesting theory – and that is Benton lived and worked near a large Russian community. And apparently there was a cigar poster that was advertising to this population. In this poster there was a word that looked like “hobo,” so hobo or a word very similar to it in Russian means “new.” So, it’s like, “Hey, there’s this new cigar out there – “Hobo.” And the reason that people tie this typeface and this name back to that poster – In addition to that word – is that apparently a letter O, that was used in the poster almost exactly matches the O, that later appeared in Hobo. And when I say almost matched, like you could take a tracing of it, slap it on this original poster and it matches, so it could very well be that again.

If you think about our Underappreciated, Unsung Logos podcast episode, you had this unsung hero that maybe put together a few of these characters and just went about his business, you know. Finished his cigar poster project. Then Benton comes along sees this letter form, a spark flies, and he decides, “Hey, this could really go somewhere.”

I really feel this is goes back to something Todd, that you and I have repeatedly returned to in our episodes, which is that all designers are always standing on the shoulders of others, right? Mining pop culture, looking at the built environment, seeing things that are right at your fingertips. This is in my opinion, just another example of that. Enough about me, enough about Hobo.

Let’s jump into your memory. 

All right. I don’t think I caught the date around when Hobo was released.

The lighter weight was released in 1915, but the original Hobo was 1910. So, it’s 110 years old. I mean, this is not a new typeface. But the good news is it was certainly around before 1979, certainly around, certainly around before the show that was second only in ratings to Dallas at one point on CBS.

[Break] While we have your time. If you want to learn more about us and the podcast, there are a few ways to do it. Visit our website at Two Designers Walk Into a Bar.com. All of that is spelled out. No numbers. Kind of a long URL, so do yourself a favor and bookmark it. Once you're there, you can find links to more information about the subjects in this episode, our episode archive and information about both of us.

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Are we done? We’re done.

[Part 2]

Okay. So both of our dates with good personalities that we’re bringing to the bar tonight. They share some similarities. Both were born around the same time period, back in 1910. 

You know, Todd. Without going any further, I think this proves we both like older women. 

So I never did let on the exact typeface that I'm talking about, but I did tell you it was designed by a pretty famous type designer out of Chicago.

The band Chicago?

No, not exactly. Not exactly. There’s a little bit of discrepancy in the times, but let’s just say 1920, 1922, it was drawn. It was a version of another typeface that this guy had created famous earlier. You might know him, the great Oz. Does that sound like anybody?

Yeah, that’s right. Oswald Cooper. Cooper Black is what we’re talking about. 

I love it. I adore Cooper Black.

Of course. If you look up “ironic” in the designer’s fancy dictionary, you would see that it’s written in Cooper Black because people love it. Or don’t. It has been used in some incredibly sublime uses and then some really janky ones too.

Let me tell you a little bit about how I was exposed to this. First of all back – I don’t know, probably it was in the seventies sometime…late seventies – My parents bought me these giant cork letters, so I could pin stuff to them on my wall. And they happened to be letters in Cooper Black, which is cool.

I didn’t know. Right? I had no idea that there were even these styles of typefaces. I just was happy enough that I could recognize the letter C for one of them. So, I realized at the time that was the same typestyle as some titles to some of their records. Again, this was sort of the seventies, things like the Beach Boys Pet Sounds, Neil Diamond’s Greatest Hits. You know, some Simon and Garfunkel there.

I started connecting these things here, which I thought was kind of cool. I noticed the cork letters matched those letters on the albums and also one of my personal favorites, the packaging for Sea Monkeys, too. 

Oh yeah. Love that. 

Yeah. Then speaking of TV shows, Different Strokes. 

So Cooper Black, for me, represented this range of awesome everything from Pet Sounds to some of my pet Sea Monkeys. And I could draw it. Here’s what’s cool about that. As I said it was designed by Oswald Bruce Cooper, and it was released by the Barnhart Brothers and Spindler Type Foundry in 1922. And it was designed as an extra bold weight of Cooper’s Old Style.

And you know, it was fine. It kind of bumped along. It's fat, it’s chunky, it’s known for these sort of rounded bottoms – these curved bottoms that were forgiving if you had bad type setting. So, the baseline didn’t always have to align. It sort of still worked because there were no flat edges on the bottom.

Flash forward and technology advancements, movable type, Phototype started kind of getting to be a thing in the late fifties, and it allowed us to start squeezing letters together even more tightly so the kerning would become super tight and Oz Cooper thought that’s where Cooper Black looked its best. When it was like jammed together with tight letter spacing and tight kerning.

Phototype, obviously of that period was starting to allow us to do those kinds of things, which is cool. It’s given us some more freedom. 

For some of the listeners let’s define what Phototype is super-duper quickly and why now there’s this freedom that wasn’t there before.

Okay. So up until then, letters had to be created either in wood – the early stages or in metal type. And you had to set every letter of every word using individual pieces of metal or wood back in the day. And because they were real blocks. They were real chunks. They couldn’t get, but so close together.

With the technological advent of Phototype, we could then squish the letters more tightly, kerning them, better together.

Because they were on film at that point, it was a film positive, film negative. So, the only thing was light had to pass through it. You could layer things on top of each other, right?

Yeah. Right. But the real kind of interesting thing that happened here at the crossroads the mid-1960s was what you, and I know as the start of the desktop revolution. This giant step forward happened in the sixties when software became available, which allowed different typefaces to be available.

And users, typesetters, operators were working on CRT screens, which gave the typesetter even more freedom to express themselves with different typefaces. So no doubt, Hobo was kicking it back then as well and Cooper Black – A great representation of the time, because it was fat. It was chunky. It got attention. Right? 

This happened it also side with the explosion of expression that happened in the 1960s and seventies. So think about things like band flyers or protest signs. And as I said before, album covers. So many album covers at that time were set with Cooper Black. It became a sign of the times. It became identifiable as part of that generation, part of that artistic expression.

It’s so funny that you mentioned this because when I was doing some of my research for this episode, I found a lot of flyers and book covers and things like that. There were actually set in both Cooper Black and Hobo. Apparently, these guys have been roommates for a long time. 

Yeah. Apparently, that’s like some kind of unholy duo, right?

Or superhero duo. Yeah. We don’t know if it’s a Thor and Loki or if it’s more like the Wonder Twins, right?

Okay. So let me talk about my impression of it. Obviously, it was kind of everywhere at a period of time and it’s so part of the culture. But again, a thing that was really an important use of it was Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys.

And everybody knows this record. It was released in 1966, May 16th, 1966, which is about a year after Brian Wilson had decided to stop touring with the band. He was having some air quotes “issues,” so decided for the band to go out on tour he would stay holed up in the studio and make masterpieces. So, this freedom from touring allowed him to really get into the studio, use the studio for artistic expression.

He could record endlessly. He could twiddle knobs endlessly. The great thing I mentioned, sort of the technology advances of phototype setting, but also recording technology was also advancing at a rapid rate. 

Now, the third part of this intersection…of this crossroads if you will…was drug use. Around the mid-sixties, obviously drug use was becoming more apparent. LSD and marijuana, certainly with recording artists, and Brian Wilson was no different.

Todd, you know, I actually saw a documentary about Brian Wilson during this time when he was sort of separating from the band. And from what I recall, he actually had some mental issues happening. I mean, and not even trying to sound funny by saying that he was starting to get sick. And if I remember one of the symptoms when he or other people started knowing things were going wrong and I think this goes to the drug use. The idea of self-medicating was, uh, during this time, when he was in the studio and playing music, wasn’t he having auditory hallucinations? 

Yes. Yes. I mean, why else would you use a theremin on a record, right, Elliot? 

Well, if a UFO is landing, you use a theremin. 

Good point. Now I know how I can break out my theremin.

Clearly, yes. He had some issues which had kept him from touring and allowed him to really focus on making music that broke new ground. So then Pet Sounds was released at the time as I said, in 1966. And it’s widely known that Pet Sounds influenced the Beatles to create Sgt Pepper’s.

There actually was an arms race for those of you who don’t know, between the Beatles and the Beach Boys. 

Yes. If you think about that period Pet Sounds followed by Sgt Pepper’s – which was the reaction from the Beatles – That was sort of the big bang of pop culture that represents the 1960s.

And we can say Cooper Black was there to tell us about it. 

Oh you know, I will also give you another example from my childhood. That is still on the air today. Boom. Yeah. All these years later. And Todd, I’m about to give you a hint. Are you ready? Okay. Okay. Close your close your eyes. Imagine you’re like 15-years old and you're sitting in front of the television.

Okay. One, two-hoo, th-reeee.

Yeah. That’s what Cooper Black tastes like – Tootsie Pops. 

Yes. A hundred percent. It tastes like Tootsie Pops, right? 

Yeah. So I was thinking about this and I’m going to ask you that same question. Like when I think of Cooper Black, now obviously I taste Tootsie Pops or Tootsie Rolls. I see in-your-face advertising, I see TV shows like M*A*S*H or Bob Newhart. And I hear the sounds of a clavinet or theremin. 

Right. Yes, both. I mean, how amazing would that be up playing here? Playing a theremin. 

So, what does Hobo tastes like, Elliot?

Corn pone.

Corn pone and salt. What sound does Hobo make, Elliot? 

The voice of Hobo is Waylon Jennings. 

Just a good old boy.

And the balladeer man, the guy who narrated all of the episodes of The Dukes of Hazzard a long with singing his theme song. 

That’s right. So, okay. What lasting impressions do you have from Hobo and The Dukes?

Oh, man. Well, first of all, I don’t think a car named the General Lee with a giant rebel battle flag could probably be on television today.

Not pass standards. 

It wouldn’t pass muster, but 30 years ago I had the whole Ertl – I imagine that’s how you would pronounce that company’s name – I had all of the Matchbox cars. I read that there were 12 General Lee’s on the original. You know, cause they were all getting smashed up all the time with all the stunts. I wanted to be a stunt car driver when I was little, when I wasn’t going to be an NFL quarterback, I wanted to totally be the guy who got paid to jump an orange car over a river or over police cars, over the bad guys from the big city of Atlanta, you know, whatever it took, man.

I was all about that. So I had several General Lee models that I would put together and then I smashed them up cause they got smashed up on the show. But to me, to this day…probably I’m not suggesting I get Hobo as the typeface on my tombstone…But if the last thing I look at is Hobo. It will still remind me of The Dukes of Hazzard that is that typeface to me. 

Even though you’re from the Midwest, Elliot. You’re just a good old boy. 

I’m not harming anybody. 

No, no, you’re just a good old boy. You’re rounding the curves. Aren’t you? Straightening the hills? Sorry. Flattening the Hills.

And straightening the curves. Sorry, Todd. It’s official. Turn your card in. You’re no longer a Southerner

Turn in the card.

I can still name the actors though…Tom Snyder. Uh…John Schneider, Tom Wopat, Catherine Bach, Denver Pyle.

Love Denver Pyle. And who played Roscoe? 

Um, man, I can’t think of his name, but both Denver Pyle and the character that played Roscoe were on Andy Griffith. 

Oh yeah. And, what was Roscoe’s dog? The name of his dog?

Oh, okay. You’re ready for my impression. 

Go ahead.

“Goooo Flash. Git. Git. Git.”

That was awesome. I closed my eyes, Roscoe was here. Now there was a Cooter in the show too, right?

He’s a mechanic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Well, you know what? I’m going to leave that alone because the 14 listeners we do have, I at least want to still have 12 listeners when this episode plays. 

That’s right. I may have lost some there. Sorry about that. 

So, Todd. You know we joke about Tootsie Roll and some of these other things. What other – if any lasting impressions – do you have about Cooper Black? So you know, if it were like a flashcard and I just had a cork C. Like if I had an upper case C of Cooper Black. And I flashed that in front of you real quick. What would be the first thing that pop into your head? 

So clearly it was of the time, right? It’s used now, ironically, if we want to be more retro, but from sort of the sixties and seventies, it definitely represented artistic technology and civil advancement.

And to me like Cooper Black was both the cause and the result of it. As I said before, it represents kind of those things all coming together. And it was in your face. We’re going to post this link to on the website. There’s a great video by Vox called That Font is Everywhere.

It’s actually pretty well designed. Although it certainly had its minutes. Um, but it’s certainly well-deserved. Bold, fat in your face. Great for advertising. So I will always remember it as being adventurous as being bold, um, as sort of opening the doors, um, to artistic expression and, uh, really kind of yelling at me a little. Bit with the sound of a theremin and a clavinet. Geez, I guess I win the low culture award this week because it just reminds me of a TV.

You win this round, Todd Coats. But I’ll be back. I will be back. One of us always has to be low-brow. One has to be high-brow. I really thought, you know, with these two type faces today, we both were going to drive through the neighborhood of high-brow or excuse me, low-brow.

I was going to say, if we both drove through the neighborhood of high brow at the same time, everybody would look out their windows and know something’s up. They would be moving out of the neighborhood and then, you know, who’d be following us.

Well, Todd, it was a pleasure as always, I thoroughly enjoyed it. And, uh, I can’t wait to do this again. 

Absolutely. Thanks Elliott. Thanks to our 12 listeners out there. Uh, tell a friend if you want to really make them like a lifelong friend. No, I would say, get a tattoo of one of your initials and Cooper Black and the other initial in Hobo.

Oh yeah, yeah. And then, and then, and then on your body, those two type faces are now lifelong friends.

Just a good old boy.

###END###