Episode 02: KISS, The Bicentennial and the Year 1976

Two Designers Walk Into A Bar

Episode 02: KISS, The Bicentennial and the Year 1976

Released September 30, 2020
© 2020 Two Designers Media, LLC

Welcome to Two Designers Walk Into a Bar. A place where pop culture, loving creatives, discover design icons that make us tick. And we share a few cocktails in the process.

Today we venture back to the groovy 1970s. Bottoms were belled. Hips were hugged. Music went grand and cheesy, and the nation gussied up for the big two-O-O. We’ll meet up with Harvey Wallbanger, Tommy Collins, and a couple pieces of iconic pop culture that have impacted us both. So pull up a stool and join in.

Elliot, welcome back today to 1976. A banner year on so many different fronts. I know we're a decade apart so, you are celebrating the big O-three in that a year, I was going into teenagerhood. I was 13. So today I'm going to talk about a piece of art that was influential to me as is the music that goes along with it. How about yourself?

Well Todd, I think the way you labeled my birthday, I wouldn't say it was O-three. I think my parents–if I were to go back into a photo album and look–it would just be a three sitting on top of the cake, but being the Dukes of Hazzard fan that you are, I can understand why O-three was probably sitting on top of your cake when you were that age. So, for me obviously very young. But that doesn't mean we don't remember things from that time. And, one of–if not my earliest design memory–was from the year 1976. And I'm eager to talk about that.

Alright. Kick it off. Let’s do it.

Okay Elliot, why don't you start. Tell us about this influential piece of design work, that really hit you when you were three years old.

Absolutely. So you and I – we joke about these things, but I think with both of us – there was something that was the trigger that really got us interested in, or aware of design. There’s sort of this thing, or this series of things we could point to. Maybe it’s something we were watching on television, or maybe it was something we got in the mail, let’s say, picture pages or something like this…or Sesame Street, right? All these different things from when we were little. For me though, it really wasn't something that was related to children. It was something that was made for everybody.

So Todd, I think both you and I, and anyone listening who loves art or loves design, there certainly is this thing or collection of things. Whatever form it may take that really – I don't know, piqued our interest or got us aware of. There’s this profession or this movement or whatever you want to refer to it…you know…a little kid would say…called design. You just look at something you like…“I want to make something like that.”…or…“Why do I like that?” This period of reflection in whatever permanent form it may take.

You know, I guess we could refer to it as stopping power. I wasn’t paying attention to stuff. And all of a sudden, there’s this thing that I’m looking at…or I wanted…you know…little kids want things. It’s like, “Why do I want that?”

For me the year 1976 – of course was a big year for the country – it’s our 200th birthday. For a lot of folks who might be too young or might not remember their design history, there was an amazing logo that was developed by the firm Chermayeff and Geismar in New York City – still around today–for the bicentennial. You know, it’s kind of hard…unfortunately in our current political climate and social climate in this country…to just remember how excited everyone was for the 200th anniversary. For our bicentennial here in the United States.

Everything was painted red, white, and blue. You know, every town, every Main Street. You know there was bunting…parades…the fire hydrants are painted red, white, and blue. You know, all of these different things. Flags on the front of everyone’s houses. When I was a little kid, I loved flags. That probably was due to the fact that my mom had hung an original…Uh…not original…but a 13-star Betsy Ross flag over my bed. It wasn’t made by Betsy Ross, as far as I know, although I guess I should have hung on to that and I should've had it appraised.

Related to the bunting and everything like this…this designer…Bruce Blackburn really created this – in my opinion–today as well as when I was three... this perfect logo that just exemplified the spirit of the time. Just to describe it really quickly. It’s a star, it’s a white star. It’s knocked out of a background and then the five points of the star are wrapped by these red, white, and blue sort of parallel swooshes – if you sort of think about a Nike swoosh–kind of that comet-tail kind of thing – but there are these parallel red, white and blue stripes and Bruce Blackburn referred to them as bunting. That was sort of his thing. And it was really…gosh…just a timeless logo. It was streamlined, so certainly modern, but it wasn’t cold. Because it still sort of referenced again…Main Street and all these sorts of things.

His original mark…we’ll put this on our website…folks of course can look it up on their own if they're not already familiar with it…The original mark was just the star. Then, the bicentennial commission wanted this Helvetica type sort of ringing it. This black Helvetica type so that people would know…I guess when it was outside of its initial context…what it was or what it represented. But I don't even think it needed that.

You know, being a little kid and looking at it, I don’t really remember the type per se and the fact that it was the bicentennial. I think it was so of its time and it was so in an environment, there's no way that you could have mistaken it for anything else. Even if it was…say…a flag flying in front of the post office, it was always flying under the American flag.

If you’re a little kid, it was so obvious and so simple to make that connection. It’s one star in this flag. There’s 50 stars on the flag above it. This logo has stripes, the flag above it has stripes. I think for a little kid, it was such an obvious connection and it was on stamps, patches, all of these different things.

I still love it. I love it to this day. A lot of designers who are around my age when I have brought this logo up for them in conversation, their eyes sort of light up. And they have said to me that they had a very similar response and it’s one of the first things they remember as well.

So Todd, I’m really curious. Of course you were a little bit older did that have an impact on you? Did you remember it and what was your response to it?

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it’s almost like you were there! Even at a three-year-old level, I think you really nailed the atmosphere that was going on for the bicentennial.

You know I was 13 so I wasn’t around a lot before, but I was understanding that this was kind of a big deal for our country. And it was the thing that brought people together. The bicentennial…obviously the event…brought people together. The celebrations started a year in advance and certainly this mark was a visual reminder of that and a merchandising reminder that I certainly remember very well.

And the thing that I remember about it is…I was starting to get into design…I was starting to develop a knack for things like I like that. So the first thing I thought was, “Okay, it could’ve just been a star, but the designer–and I didn't know who the designer was at the time–took it to another place.”

So, it was the negative space formed by the ring of bunting that made the star, that worked on everything. And it was just simple and it was beautiful and it complemented – as you said before – all the other stuff around it. With 50 stars and the other red and white stripes of other flags. So yeah, it was everywhere.

And when I think about it now with the experience you and I have in this industry, it really was brilliant. It was tapping into national pride. It was tapping into the history of our country coming together. And, it gave some stuff for people to buy to celebrate this…which I thought was pretty interesting.

You’re right Todd. One of the most common things I found when I was doing a little bit of research about this – of course–was postage stamps. So if you think about the post office and postage stamps – I had mentioned a post office earlier in terms of one place where you might see the flag flying on a flagpole – postage stamps are ubiquitous, right? They're everywhere. And even if you don’t buy them…but I send you a letter with one attached to it…you’re naturally going to see it. I think even today, it’s interesting. There are a few postage stamp designs that I’ve seen that are currently being used and there’s no way…to me…that they’re not in some way–shape or form–influenced by this original design.

Todd, you had mentioned a minute ago the phrase “going places.” And I can’t let this conversation go without mentioning Bruce Blackburn also designed the famous NASA worm logo. And not only that, the bicentennial logo for years and years and years was painted on the Kennedy Space Center rockets… buildings…where the space shuttle was kept. And prior to that of course, rockets were kept. So it was truly civic, pride and any number of levels. It was so iconic.

So Elliot, you're telling me that you can name the number of graphic designers whose logos have been shot into space on one hand?

Yeah. Oh, definitely. Well I think…a contemporary designer…it’s actually at least up to two now. I was reading the other week that there's a new logo that's been attached to rockets for a specific space program. But yeah. And whoever designed the NASA meatball logo…which I don’t have in the files of my mind…So whoever that designer was. I can’t remember. Maybe we’ll post that on our webpage as well.

What a privilege. I mean the fact that he was able to design these two incredible logos that are truly iconic in any sense of the word. You know to me, “Iconic” is like ‘Does your mom know what it is?’ Right? Would your neighbor know what it is? And even if – like I was saying earlier – if you remove that circle of type and you showed this–to your point–It was just a negative star inside of these stripes.

But I think if you showed it to anyone of a certain age they would say, “Oh yeah, that's the bicentennial logo.”

Well, that was fun. So, Todd, I don't know about you. I'm feeling patriotic. I’m feeling a little bit groovy, kind of want to rock out.

Always.

And maybe that means we ought to take a break, get some refills on our drinks and meet back here around the table in just a minute.

Great idea. Cutaway music!

Interesting Elliot. This would be a good time for me to introduce something from 1976, too. ‘Cause I can see a lot of similarities.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let’s do this.

Alright. So, I think you went pretty high brow with the bicentennial logo, which is great and it's beautiful. Um, I went a little more…low brow.

Are you…trying to frighten me?

No. I can’t do that with my clothes on…

Especially if this is just an audio thing, right?

I’m just saying, Elliot…

Anyone out there listening you have just dodged a tremendous bullet.

Hey thanks, man. I appreciate that compliment.

Uh, yeah. Back to what I was going to say…Elliot, when you were talking–and there’s some interesting similarities because I picked a piece also from 1976–it had not been shot into space as far as I know yet.

But when I think about this it had a major impact on me. It was a representation of a cultural movement at the time, too. This was the album cover for KISS’ Rock And Roll Over, which was their fifth studio album.

Okay. Todd, you've piqued my curiosity. Let’s connect some dots here.

Okay. Yeah. So, here’s the first dot I would connect. First of all, you reminded me about the bicentennial logo having this circular motion…these sort of bunting things that are going around the outside of the star. The Rock And Roll Over…emblem…let'’s just say it’s an emblem…was designed by Michael Doret and I'll get into that in just a second. For all intents and purposes, it's basically a patch. A giant patch that looks like a flaming wheel.

If I recall, I’ve actually seen it sold as a patch…

Yeah. Yeah. I know Elliot. It’s hard to believe a band like KISS would actually sell some stuff like that.

Crass commercialism.

It’s hard to believe. Right?

Anyway. So Elliot, the whole circular motif ties those two things together, but I also found interesting – in addition to the circular thing–obviously the bicentennial logo was communicating a complex message in a really simple form, right? The star, which obviously is on our flag, but it was also used for military purposes and we didn’t want to…, uh “we”…like “we” had anything to do with it.

Yeah. They were hiring 13-year old designers.

Bruce Blackburn was sitting in his studio late one night. Looking up at the ceiling, thinking to himself, “What would Todd Coats do?”

“What would a 13-year old do?”

I’m sure what they were thinking probably was, “Let’s not make it too military.” This is a bigger context than just that.

So Elliot back to KISS at the time – we didn’t know this and I said a few minutes ago in the intro to this – KISS was a cultural phenomenon. Now we sort of look back and it’s like yeah…okay…they’ve been doing this for 45, 50 years. In 1976, there was nobody bigger on the planet. Nobody bigger.

They were coming off of probably their two most popular records that put them out on the world stage. This was the next one. This was not my favorite KISS record by any stretch, but it certainly had the appearance of being this kind of monolithic thing. You know, like a star would create. This though was like a flaming wheel.

You know, they were known for their stage shows. Fire and explosions and bombs and things like that. And so this sort of fit that, But it also had that…Coney Island vibe to it…that went along with this sort of traveling circus of Knights In Satan’s Service…as the rumor was. So, the thing I want to get across here is the band was really falling apart internally. They would hang on for a few more records, but at the time they were really falling apart. A lot of conflict inside the band.

So, the beauty of this particular design was, there were no people on top. There were four members, the band was completely designed from the beginning to be four personalities and everyone knew their names. And here was the case where you've got all four that could be showcased at any time because the album worked as a circle.

Todd, whose idea was that?

It was Michael Doret’s because the band gave him zero direction to do it.

So they were a client…

They said…I think it went something like this…Okay, I’m going to do my impersonation here… “Well, so Michael, we want you to do something that we can sell…like patches.”

Todd is that, Hoss from Bonanza as KISS’ agent and the liaison with Michael?

No. Then I would’ve gone…“Dadburn’ it, Paw.”

So no, they gave him little direction. The album before this was huge as any other KISS fans out there know. It’s called Destroyer and it really was a departure for them musically. Quite successful.

This one was a major follow-up. It didn’t hit the same levels of sales, but it certainly sold out quickly. Now here’s the kind of cool thing though. Michael Doret is from the Coney Island area. So he was certainly influenced by those banners and signage and flaming wheels of death and amusement park stuff. So, you can see when you start to dig into the context, it's like, “Oh yeah, it's really coming through here.” I mean looking at it – we have a picture of this on our webpage for those of you who aren’t familiar with it – but yeah, the KISS logo has lightening tails coming out of it. The circle that you mentioned is kind of like a saw blade, right?

Elliot, wasn't that your dancer name back in college? Lightning Tails?

Well that was our dance troupe. That was like all of us together. It was pre-Riverdance, but you know, we held our own.

Yeah. Good. Good. Yeah. Bold hand lettering…to your point…multiple colors. You know, these pops of primary color against a black background and things like this. It’s probably the best – certainly in terms of original album art – it was made for a t-shirt right? You know, made for a patch. And yeah, your eye – to return to something you said a minute ago – your eye just travels around it. There are all these visual cues…for those of you listening to this on your phone and looking at this one-inch by one-inch postage stamp and wondering what an album cover is…it was like this 12-inch square poster, right? And of course you would put the album on you would listen to it and I can only imagine turning this thing in your hands as you're listening to this album for the first time.

Did they ever use this graphic in concert? Was it ever like part of their stage craft or anything like that?

Yeah, it was sort of. Not exactly. Which is interesting because I was going to ask you the question that I'm getting ready to answer. Which is, “Why was it so influential to you, Todd?” And that’s because this particular album came out November 11th, 1976. So near the end [of the year]. This was their second album in a year, which is crazy.

It just so happened my very first concert was KISS on November 27th of 1976. So yeah, this was a big deal for me. I will always be sort of connected to that idea of being a teenager going to a loud concert at the Dorton Arena in Raleigh–which is still there today.

Yeah. National Registry of Historical Places.

It only held about 7,000 people or something like that. Though it’s a super-cool building, you know, and we could go off on a tangent about this – but Todd the first time I drove to Raleigh, when you and I lived in the same city for a little while – that was one of the first things I saw. It kind of looks like a Pringle chip with sides on it. Right? And I remember it with glass sides and I remember looking at it and thinking, “What is that? That just was super cool to me. But that’s another story for another day.

So Elliot, tell me about the influence the bicentennial logo has had on you.

I think the biggest thing, or one of the biggest things is design as a unifier. Design is kind of this umbrella. Because to me – what you talked about…why this mattered to you…it mattered to you because you can point to a specific night…literally a specific day in your life…which I think is super cool. It’s kind of like ‘I’m planting the flag of design’ and it was also a multi-sensory experience, right? It was a rock concert. That’s so cool and so for me – going back to what I was mentioning earlier about celebrating the bicentennial – If you think about it, that was also a multisensory experience, right? There were parades, there were TV shows about this like stuff. I’m sure.

I wasn’t in school then…I was too young, but my parents certainly had stuff lying around the house. Like I said, whether it was stamps or pamphlets or things like this. In fact, we’ll have a link to this – you know we don't make any money from this because we're not smart enough to do that – but I'll have a link if folks want to buy a copy of the standards manual, we'll put that up there because the standards manual is being reprinted.

And one of the things in the standards manual is it shows the storyboards from the animation of the logo for TV. Which I thought was really, really neat. Just thinking out loud about some of the stuff, but I think the reason it matters is we were just bathing in it. And I don't mean that in a jingoistic way or an overtly political way. No one was taking sides on this.

It was just a really big party. And I think it was giving thanks to just the good fortune that this experiment seems to have been working by and large for 200 years. It was right after the Vietnam war had ended but it's not like 1976 was without its issues.

Question for you Elliot. Because I was going to say that too. There were bits of conflict in 1976 and before. Which I'm sure that's the time they were planning for all of these events and this design work. So how did this start? Whose idea? Who gave it the green light to pull the country together?

Do you really want to know the answer to this?

It's going to…this is really…this is going to be…like…you're going to tell me there's no Santa Claus now.

Close, Todd. Almost like KISS might not have been a real band, but I'll leave that for you to reveal to the audience. I don't want …I'm not gonna say anything about pro wrestling, cause I really don't want to upset anybody. But yeah, it was Nixon…

What?!

Yeah. He was the one who was heading the commission at the time, too. Figuring out what the bicentennial celebration needed to be. And he was the one who helped–believe it or not–pull together.

This brief – there was a competition – and design ultimately comes to the surface. There is a company…I don’t even know if there was a prize. I mean, obviously [there was] notoriety. I’m not sure if there was any sort of monetary prize to go along with it. But, yeah. A bunch of firms submitted stuff. Bruce Blackburn worked late, burning the midnight oil a few nights and on behalf of Chermayeff and Geismar submitted this thing and the end of the day – Tricky Dick and company liked it enough to move forward and it went into production. It’s kinda crazy. You never know.

Obviously I’m too young to remember the Destroyer days and all those sorts of things. I’m aware of it of course, but I didn't ‘live it.’ My parents were not jamming out the KISS on the Hi-Fi when I was two years old in the playpen. So why don’t you tell me a little bit more…why KISS? You know, there are plenty of bands hanging around in the mid-seventies.

Why KISS? What was it about KISS? So Elliot, the band – as I said a little bit ago – the band consciously made a decision. They wanted to be unlike any other band they've ever seen. They wanted to be the band they had not seen on stage. They wanted to bring a higher level of performance…higher level of all their stage craft.

The first three studio records pretty much sounded like a live performance [in the studio]. There’s some gems on there, but it never broke until the suggestion came to record their live show. Because the record company was completely out of money and this was a Hail Mary.

The record that actually broke them was a live record and it's called “Alive” obviously. It broke them wide-open immediately. They followed it up with the next studio album – the fourth studio album – which is Destroyer, with great artwork by a guy named Ken Kelly.

And you talked about these 12” x 12” posters before that were LPs. And certainly vinyl has made a comeback now but, at the time this band was mysterious. These LPs showed they were characters and there was a lot of story around them. Parents were afraid of them. Grownups were thinking they were dangerous for their kids, obviously that made it more attractive to kids.

What we would do as we were listening to these records is we would decipher what these 12 by 12 inch messages were. We would try to understand what are they telling us? There are secrets in here…shared secrets in this artwork. In addition to the secrets in the music.

It was creating a mythology and it was creating a mystique. This particular album cover by Michael Doret is different than all that the others. He went on to do another one for them years later named Sonic Boom. It doesn’t I really look like this, but the records they were creating, had a little bit more of a fantasy feel to them. They were not as graphic as this. So this stood out in the catalog of those records.

Todd, how did they find Michael Doret or did he approach them, or how did that come about?

Well, the band is from New York City and they found him as a referral, I believe. I might have to check on this, but as a referral from some of the other record company folks they were dealing with. Michael Doret was popular and he’s still doing it, too. He had done really great magazine artwork for a Japanese arts magazine called Idea. The band’s third studio record also had kind of a Japanese style to it.

They were kind of in tune with woodcut prints…Japanese prints…things like that sort of Asian aesthetic. I think they were connected in that particular way. They saw this Idea magazine cover, which this album cover was based on shooting gallery…Coney Island, stuff like that.

So highly graphic…bold pattern content.

Todd, it's just interesting to me, that KISS is sitting around one day and they looked at the coffee table and there happen to be this Japanese design magazine sitting there. It’s like, where were they? They weren’t at the dentist’s office. That’s for sure. “Who did this? Who did this Highlights cover?”

What?

Todd you really should think about going to the dentist.

I was thinking. “Oh shit! I don't know the answer to that. I give up…who? I don't know, Elliot. Which Highlights issue is it?” Hold on, hold it, hold it closer to the microphone so I can get a good look at it.

Tell me three things Elliot that you took away from the bicentennial mark that stayed with you and possibly still influences you today.

I think of a design icon as a cultural touchstone. There’s a thread kind of running through this podcast for both of us. I think the second thing is taking a very simple form and being able to do more with it. If you think about it, it’s not a complex thing. I think someone could look at it for a good few minutes. And they could remember what it looks like enough to somewhat faithfully draw it. If you were to give someone say a piece of paper with a red colored pencil and a blue colored pencil, I think they could get reasonably close with it. You know, even if they're not a designer.

I would say in terms of the third thing, even though it wasn't intended to be nostalgic it definitely is nostalgic. That comes down to what you said about your evening watching KISS. It's all what you return to.

Interesting. All right. For me three takeaways from KISS’ Rock And Roll Over designed by Michael Doret that has stayed with me and probably influenced me to more seriously consider design as a career. First of all for me it was opening your eyes to influence and things that were not meant to be high brow to begin with…banners…signage…like I said…Coney Island…bubblegum wrappers…wheels of death.

I think design history and culture has caught up to that in a big way.

Yeah Elliot. I figured that out. I totally agree. But, but using that type of untrained communication art as a departure point, it has been something that’s…

Oh, I think in the mid-seventies, yeah. High design culture was certainly not about that.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Secondly for me is, I love all of his work and in this one in particular that we’re talking about, [Doret] was able to put a voice to letter forms and give them story. With simple marks– basically things we can really simplify…boil down into basic shapes.

So it put voice and it put meaning to letters forms. You can actually draw pictures of letters and you can make drawings of letters things in it would actually tell you part of a story there. The last thing for me – the third thing for me I’ve taken away from the Rock And Roll Over album cover is the blend of those things together…of design and illustration. Where does one stop and the other began? Just using – like I just said – using letter forms is great. Making them illustrative to help tell a story is great, but when you mix all of that together…that to me is really cool. And before you know it, you’re looking at something iconic and beautiful and worthy of a patch to be sold at a concert.

Todd, you and I have known each other for a long time. And I would say…I would classify you if I can…if I could be so bold…as a design-o-strator. You know, I think both are very obviously going into your work and yeah, I think a lot of designers I like – I’m a fan of Michael Doret’s work as well. Neville Brody is someone else who I always think of in terms of – especially 30 or 40 years ago – “Oh this typeface I want doesn’t exist. There’s no typeface that fits the mood I want. So, I’ll just make it.” I think there’s a lot of the type faces for younger designers today that we take for granted like Michael Doret’s, you can buy several of his typefaces. They're freely available. One of my favorites that I love of his is Metro Script.

As we start to wrap up. Are there any other words of wisdom…but anyone listening this long, their expectations should be lowered…

I don’t think we’ve gotten there, yet.

Yeah, we we’re still on the next hour. If you guys stick with us, we’ll find something.

Elliot, I think 1976 was an interesting time in our history and world history with so much going on. If you compare it to 2020, which is when we’re recording this, it would be hard to imagine that we could do the same things again. You talked about the unification of the bicentennial.

We didn’t have the level of information floating around like we have now. We didn’t have the level of influence from people on the internet, obviously everywhere. You had three TV channels and this particular mark–the bicentennial mark–was everywhere on the three channels.

And certainly the cultural phenomenon that was KISS was everywhere on three channels as well. So there was a collective…agreement if you will…or conversation.

Yeah. Yeah. You know like or hate anything. We all got the same story.

Well, Todd, this was great. We always seem to have fun together and I always love our design conversation. So thanks for taking the time and I look forward to doing it again super soon.

Yeah, we got some great stuff planned for future episodes. So, come back. Check back often.

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